Conversation about Second Law

For me, the biggest reason (other than my personal beliefs), is that evolution defies the law of entropy. Nothing in nature spontaneously organizes without outside influences. If I give evolution the benefit of the doubt that amino acids did spontaneously organize, they would then have to find each other and spontaneously assemble into proteins and RNA (both of which are extremely complex). This simply doesn’t make sense to me. When I think of all the work that goes into keeping my house orderly when it feels like I barely live in it, it’s exhausting.

Christian apologists purposefully lie about entropy with the goal to confuse their sheep. Apologists get corrected by physicists all the time, explaining that life and evolution do not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. BUT they continue to tell the same story.

Only a fool think that "that evolution defies the law of entropy"

An even bigger fool believes: "Nothing in nature spontaneously organizes without outside influences" because anyone with a garden knows that trees and plant grow ALL ON THEIR OWN. They need sun and water and nutrients, but all the growing is done by them.

I’m a fool because I believe what I see with my own eyes? I’m a fool because something doesn’t make sense to me, and I won’t believe someone else over my own judgement? Yes that does sound like the definition of a fool doesn’t it? Calling me a fool does NOT make me one. And I have nothing to apologize for 🙂

You are certainly not a fool because someone calls you one.

So, to prove otherwise: explain to me as clearly as you can, what is the second law of thermodynamics, and why do you believe evolution violates it. That is two questions, can you answer both?

the second law of thermodynamics says that disorder will increase in a system as time goes on. For example a mixture of ice and water will eventually turn to only water; though it looks like it would be more uniform as there is only one form of water, it is actually less orderly because the molecules are less organized. I believe evolution violates this law because atoms of different elements would have had to randomly organize themselves perfectly (which includes the folding of proteins) in order for life to have begun. In short, the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) says things will become more disorderly, while biogenesis says order randomly happened.

Your definition is pretty good, thanks!

How is it though that you explain the fact that a tree grows? The carbon in taken from the air (definitely disorganized) and it is organized into trunk, branches, and leaves. How is it that the tree BECOMES organized? Doesn't the second law prevent this from happening?

It seems you understand entropy very well, but then how do you explain that plants and animals organize matter quite effectively. A tree takes carbon from the air and organizes it into trunk branches and leaves. A tree is far more organized than the air it came from. Why is it that that does not violate the second law of thermodynamics? Please think about this.

the simplest answer is that I believe God created it so that plants have the ability to do so

The longer, more scientific answer is that the Krebbs cycle has mechanisms that are able to harness the power of the sun to transform carbon into sugar. (Which have you ever looked at that cycle? Dang is it complicated) I admit it’s possible it evolved on its own, but I certainly don’t believe that given its complexity.

Solar panels and plants are the only two things I know of that can take the Sun’s energy and transform it, and at least one of those was intelligently designed. Everything else melts and degrades

But, are plants violating the second law of thermodynamics? For whatever reason, God given or not, even if intelligently designed, do plants and animals organize matter from a disorganized for to a more organized one?

It is clear that they do, but why isn't this a violation of the second law of thermodynamics?

they do and don’t. Ethics aside, if you were to put an organism in a closed system without a source of energy, the organism would die and then decompose to its most basic components (following the law of entropy).

Because plants and animals have mechanisms which allow them to take in energy from outside of their system, they can use that energy to repair damage (caused by the constant breakdown of their system) and even grow.

I believe abiogenesis violates entropy because there would first have to be a mechanism to allow molecules to harness energy of some type without being destroyed by said energy.

yes, that’s exactly right. It’s the fact that energy is running through the living system, it is able to organize matter without violating the law of thermodynamics. What’s actually happening is the light from the sun is extremely low entropy, and the infrared radiation back out to space is high entropy. These systems that organize matter through the flow of energy are called “dissipative systems” (see Ilya Prigogine)

In your original comment you said that “nothing in nature spontaneously organizes matter without outside influence”. I hope you’ll see the plants and animals absolutely do organize matters spontaneously.

If by outside influences, you mean that the sun shines on them, then that’s correct. But what I’d like you to also note is that the sun shines on evolution as well. While species are evolving, the sun is shining on the Earth and allowing matter to be spontaneously organized.

I’m hoping that you’ll think about this a little carefully: you already know that life can organize matter spontaneously. You should easily see that evolution is just another way that living systems organize the matter around them and within them.

These are not the only spontaneously organizing systems in nature: hurricanes, tornadoes, snowflakes, ocean currents, etc. Do you really believe that nothing in nature spontaneously organizes?

respectfully, can you explain what you mean by spontaneous? To me, spontaneous means without order.

I don’t see the way plants and animals as organize energy as spontaneous because there are cell cycles and mechanisms that regulate the flow of energy through them. Specifically, I don’t think plants and animals could use energy without those mechanisms, but I don’t see how those mechanisms could form without something guiding the energy.

Additionally, storms forming does look like natural systems forming simply by adding energy. Or you could look at storms forming as simply a transfer of energy (ocean currents happen because some water has more energy than other water, and therefore moves faster but nothing is formed)

"spontaneous" means by itself without something causing it. Spontaneous combustion is something burning without anything starting it.

cycles and mechanisms that regulate the flow of energy through them

Absolutely correct.

Do those cycles and mechanisms violate the 2nd law? No of course they don't. EVERYTHING obeys the second law of thermodynamics, including plant and animals and including any and all cycles and mechanisms within them.

I don’t think plants and animals could use energy without those mechanisms

Also correct. The workings of a plant actually do create order within the plant. The shape of the leaves allow surface area where the sun can cause mechanisms in the leaf to capture and store the energy of the sun, which is then used elsewhere.

I don’t see how those mechanisms could form without something guiding the energy

Do you think that every bud for every leaf on every tree needs to be attended by God, or do you think it is "automatic"? A tree grows automatically (spontaneously) without needing any external help.

The tree requires a very complex form, with millions of independent parts all working together. All those things need to be there, however the reason a tree grows is that all the necessary parts are there. All the right mechanisms to use the energy of the sun, and to grab carbon out of the air and make it into wood. Carve a groove through the bark all the way around a tree and it dies.

What I am describing is the simplest thing in the world: plants grow. We all know they grow. Strangely, apologists like to tell their sheep that nothing in nature ever organizes itself. Apologists say that nature organizing matter is a violation of the law of entropy when it absolutely is not. Life is an extremely complex chemical reaction that organizes matter all by itself.

Jan 17, 2025

Darwinism are liars. They have to lie about the scientific laws of chaos that say that evolution is impossible.

Tell me about this "scientific laws of chaos". Please present a link or evidence of how it disproves evolution.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics can be stated in any of three synonymous ways: For a spontaneous process, the entropy of the universe increases. For a spontaneous process, ΔSuniverse > 0. Ultimately, for any spontaneous process the entropy, which is related to randomness or disorder, of the universe increases. This has been tested scientifically, and it has been shown that because of this evolution is impossible. Things tend to chaos, not order. Law of the universe.

I think you have fallen prey to a common apologist trick and general misunderstanding of the entropy.

Yes, it is true that entropy "of the universe" always increases, however that entropy is not evenly distributed. It is common for entropy to decrease in some areas while it increases in other areas.

There are many common examples of this: consider a tree that takes in carbon from the air, and incorporates it into the branches and trunk. Carbon in the air is about as disordered as you can get. The tree takes the carbon in, assembles it into complex molecules, and organizes those molecules into cells which ultimately forms wood. Wood is a highly structured form of carbon.

The tree is able to decrease the entropy in its area by exhaust the increase in entropy. Sunlight arrives in a very low entropy form, and a higher entropy form of light (infrared) is radiated back out to space. For this to happen there MUST be a flow of energy through the area. Every living plant and animal is proof that things CAN become MORE organized without violating the law of entropy.

But apologists don't want you to know this. Christian organizations confused about the science call this "the law of chaos" but the application in this way is entirely wrong.

You said: "This has been tested scientifically". No, this is actually a complete misunderstanding of the law.

You said: "Things tend to chaos, not order." It is the UNIVERSE that tends to increase entropy, but that does not mean that local things can not decrease in entropy. The entropy is not equally distributed. I can understand that the average person might not know this, however apologists are told this repeatedly, and they still continue to tell the falsehood. They lie. They feel that lying is justified to sell the story of Jesus, however I am confident that Jesus would never agree to that.

It seems obvious to me that no true God would require followers to lie about the world.

You have been guzzling the Kool-aid. It has been proven that evolution is impossible because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but atheists say, that' cant be true because I don't believe in God so it must be false and start teaching and believing lies, which you guzzle.

Sigh.